Why Care? 49: Food, Family, and Leadership Lessons with Shelina Permalloo and Pamela Permalloo Bass
“The whole point about our food and our culture is we all cook very differently, and I hadn't quite understood that until I started this journey. So the fact that we are Chinese, Mauritian French, Mauritian Indians, which have subclasses of the way they cook, veg, non veg. You've got Muslim communities. You've got the black communities of Mauritius - Creole. All of us create food in unique ways to us, and they have been inherited food. This is how we speak to one another, through the way that we prepare our foods. So, if I present that to the world and you're telling me it's wrong, that means you're telling me that the generations of women and men that cook those recipes were also wrong. And I just think that's such a naive and very bigoted approach to championing our people. We should all be sitting there and respecting the fact we are all successful in different ways. And I just wish there was more of that, and that's what I want, more of our Mauritian communities, really.“
In this episode of Why Care?, host, Nadia Nagamootoo, has an inspiring conversation with the Permalloo Sisters - Shelina Permalloo, MasterChef winner and celebrated chef, and Pamela Permalloo Bass, a diversity, equity, and inclusion expert with extensive experience in the NHS. Together, they share stories of their Mauritian heritage, navigating identity as British Mauritian women, and breaking barriers in their respective industries. From exploring the richness of Mauritian cuisine to advocating for inclusion in the workplace, this episode is a heartfelt exploration of family, culture, and leadership.
Key Takeaways
Cultural heritage can be a source of strength and connection in navigating personal and professional challenges.
Shelina and Pamela’s stories showcase how embracing heritage can drive creativity, resilience and a sense of purpose.
Food and hospitality serve as powerful tools for preserving culture and fostering community.
Breaking barriers requires persistence, leadership and a commitment to inclusion.
Pamela emphasises the need for inclusive leadership to address systemic inequities and create meaningful change in organisations.
The Permalloo sisters highlight the importance of pushing boundaries and creating opportunities for others, paving the way for future generations.
Highlights
Growing Up as a Mauritian in the UK: Shelina and Pamela discuss their upbringing, family dynamics, and the influence of their Mauritian heritage on their identities.
Breaking Cultural Stereotypes: Pamela reflects on challenging traditional gender roles and cultural expectations, while Shelina shares her journey to embracing her heritage through food.
Advocating for Inclusion: Pamela highlights the importance of addressing systemic inequities in the NHS and fostering cultural awareness in leadership.
The Power of Food and Hospitality: Shelina describes how Mauritian cuisine connects people and celebrates diversity, becoming her way of preserving and sharing her roots.
Resilience and Leadership: The Permalloo sisters explore the importance of resilience, challenging the status quo, and leading with purpose in their fields.
The Reality of Success: Shelina shares the duality of her success, from celebrating Mauritian culture through food to facing criticism and navigating her unique position as a visible figure.
Links
Shelina’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shelinacooks/?hl=en
Shelina’s First Book - “Sunshine on a Plate”
Shelina’s Second Book - “The Sunshine Diet”
NHS Workforce Race Equality Standard 2023: https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/nhs-workforce-race-equality-standard-2023-data-analysis-report-for-nhs-trusts/
Roger Kline (August 2015): Beyond the Snowy White Peaks of the NHS Report
Roger Kline & Joy Warmington (January 2024): Too Hot to Handle Report
Pamela’s LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/pamela-permalloo-bass-50749534
Avenir Consulting: https://linktr.ee/avenirconsultingservices
Transcript
Shelina Permalloo 00:00
So I'd actually been asked to host a week of cooking at a very well-known restaurant in central London in Mayfair, and my name was across all the posters and it was a collaborative seven days of, you know, Mauritian and other cuisine together. You know, chef Shelina Permalloo, MasterChef winner, and so I arrived the first morning of the event with my pack of knives and my backpack in the morning, so no makeup, looking like I just jumped out of bed because I had, it was about five in the morning, and I go in and the person at the desk says, you know, the cleaning equipment's over on that side because they thought I was a KP, a kitchen porter. And I just went, no, no, no, I'm going to be head chef tonight. What? What are you talking about?
Pamela Permalloo Bass 00:53
And it was literally that.
Shelina Permalloo 00:54
And she just looked, and it was a she, and she was a, sort of the restaurant floor manager, and I just went, you know, the picture behind you, I know it doesn't look like me, you know. I said, don't look good in real life, and she started laughing. So I made it, but that was because I made it soft. I didn't make it a bit itchy because I didn't want to start with any bad energy, and it goes back to this whole kind of, I'm a bit more compliant, I think if it was Pam, she might have…
Pamela Permalloo Bass 01:21
Got the knives out….got something more than that.
Shelina Permalloo 01:22
So I, you know, made a joke of it, but actually there is something inherent there that, you know, another woman saw a woman of colour and automatically assumes that I'm not a skilled or experienced chef, that the only place for me was as a kitchen porter.
Nadia Nagamootoo 01:39
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organisational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to companies' bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring?
I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported, but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles, both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode 49 of Why Care? My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. Today, I have two inspirational Mauritian sisters on the show, Pamela Permalloo Bass and Shelina Permalloo. Pamela has spent over 25 years in the field of diversity, equity, and inclusion, many of which were in the NHS, where she won awards for her leadership in advancing DEI. She has since set up her own DEI consultancy, where she offers her expertise and coaching to a wide range of clients. Shelina won Masterchef in 2012, and has worked on various TV projects such as L’orraine, This Morning, Sunday Brunch, and The Food Network. Her first book, Sunshine on a Plate, was published in 2013, with her second book, The Sunshine Diet, coming out in 2015. For seven years, Shelina ran an all-female restaurant, La Case Maman, a Mauritian street kitchen in Southampton. In this episode, we discuss the challenges of growing up in the 80s with competing cultures, at home in a Mauritian family, whilst trying to integrate into British life outside of that. We share our response to patriarchal views and traditions, and how gender expectations have shaped who we have become, both in complying with and resisting them. Shelina shares moments where she's been underestimated as a woman head chef, and Pamela relays the challenges of being the only, and her frustration of people wanting to be seen with her simply because she's Brown. Not only is this a fascinating conversation, it's also wonderful to so clearly see the love and mutual respect these two sisters have for one another. So, so much to take from this conversation. Enjoy.
Hello, Pamela and Shelina. Oh my goodness, I have been so excited to have this conversation with you. We are three Mauritian women on a call, going to have a conversation, what could be more fun? So excited. Welcome.
Shelina Permalloo 05:17
Thank you. I'm just waiting for the gajaks now. I feel like then it will be a proper luncheon party.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:22
Oh my goodness. Could you imagine if you just sat there on this virtual call, eating some gajak?
Shelina Permalloo 05:28
I'd be jealous. The gajak and talking over each other with some music in the background.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:38
Oh dear. So I have to say that having the both of you on the call is really special for me. I do have some friends and family, obviously, who are first generation UK born. And I know Pamela, actually you were born in Mauritius, but you spend most of your life here. I'm just interested in how similar or indeed different our experiences have been as young girls growing up in a Mauritian family. What was your life like? Can you give us a visual maybe, like how was it Pamela and Shelina as young girls, as sisters growing up in a Mauritian family in the UK?
Shelina Permalloo 06:16
I'll let Pamela start.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 06:18
I was about to say, well, so I should share with you all that I'm the eldest, although often I do get asked who's the eldest between you two, which I do quite like. Although Shelina doesn't like it, I like it. But yes, I'm the eldest by nine years and we have a brother who's six years younger than me, two and a half years older than Shelina. So it was three of us. And as you've already shared Nadia, I was born in Mauritius. So my parents and myself came over to the UK in the early seventies. And then my brother was born in the late seventies and Shelina was born in the early eighties. So the first sort of couple of years of my own experience was obviously not having any siblings.
So that was a quite quiet time. But then when we were all there, all three of us, it was a very lively household. And definitely as the family became more established in the UK, we had more people visiting us. We'd have periods of the year where you'd have aunties and uncles and cousins who you've never met, but you do meet them because they turn up at your house. And some of them stayed for months on end. Lots of comings and goings, lots of times where we had to share our bedrooms or give up our beds. But what I didn't like Nadia was giving up food. And I still don't like doing that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 07:35
But that's one thing that was in abundance, I think for me, growing up in my family, there was always plenty of food. There just seems to be enough to go round and for the uncle or aunt who dropped around. Did you have that too?
Shelina Permalloo 07:50
I would definitely say when I think about childhood and being a British Mauritian growing up, I didn't really know what being British was until I became much older. I would certainly say I felt more Mauritian, especially being from Southampton. It was at the time, a very white British area. So I felt visibly different and I knew I was different. And I always knew I was Mauritian if that made sense. So growing up, like Pam said, there was people in and out of the house every weekend. It was all about Mauritian family and family being as broad as not direct blood relations. They're just Mauritians, aren't they, just coming to your house, coming to get fed and to drink. And we all had like roles and responsibilities. I remember weekends was all about people being over and kids occupying themselves and just enjoying themselves.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:38
That's exactly the same. We would head upstairs and chat and play games and what have you. And it seemed like the adults had absolutely no clue about what we were doing.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 08:47
They wouldn't know if we were in the house or weren't in the house. Think about all of the play dates I organise as an adult now. And I think, gosh, it's really child-centric. The child is always in view. And it's like, I don't know if my parents knew we were in the house or not.
Nadia Nagamootoo 09:06
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 09:07
Carnage, quiet carnage. We knew we couldn't mess up anyone's house because you would have really got disciplined. But yeah, I think it was really all about the community staying tight. And I think everyone that came to England, especially to Southampton, because we were outside of the London demographic. I know there was a lot more Mauritians in London, lots of different types of Mauritians, but we didn't have that. We had a much smaller cohort of Mauritians and everyone really wanted to stay tight to their culture. So I think the experience of being Mauritian growing up in the UK was very much, for me, what I took away was about the food and the language. And I think that's what I've always done, which has kept close to my roots, perhaps not through language, but always through food. And yeah, I think that would have been the stuff that I loved the most. There was stuff that I didn't like. We'll come to that later. The culture that I love is the hospitality, the language, the noise and food.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:01
Do you know what? I think hospitality is second to none in Mauritius and the Mauritians who I know, the families I know. No matter what other country we go to on holiday, when you go to Mauritius, it's like it's another level of... My husband, when we first got married, we went to Mauritius. So it was the first time that our family in Mauritius had met him. And he's got a good appetite. And they very quickly realised, oh, and they loved him for it. The problem being is that we were there for two weeks on a two-week holiday, and everyone wanted to meet him. So we'd go to this auntie's house at lunch, and then this auntie and uncle's house in the evening. And after the first week, Matt basically said, I can't do this. Because what he would do is he would clean his plate at lunchtime, and they'd bring out more thinking, wow, this man eats, this is brilliant. And then he was already full by the time he got to dinner and still had to do the same. It was like performing.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 11:10
I'm not a performing monkey. And I was like, okay, okay.
Nadia Nagamootoo 11:10
So by the second week, I was like, it's either lunch or it's dinner, because I was going to have to roll him back onto the plane otherwise. I agree with you. It's a love of that hospitality, definitely. And just that feeling that I don't have much, but I want to share with you. Because often many Mauritian families don't have much. We didn't have much when I was growing up in the 80s. We had very little, but there was always food. Let's talk a little bit about the down, because we're not going to rose tint Mauritius as much as we would, obviously, we absolutely love the country. There is an evolving and broadening mindset in Mauritius, particularly around gender. It is, however, a really patriarchal country still. And of course, pretty much most countries in the world are grounded in patriarchy. So I'm not singling out Mauritius. But as an island, when I go back, there is still some really clear where women can do that, but they can't do this, whereas men can do all of it. And I still feel it and I see it. So I'm just interested in, as a Mauritian growing up here, with some of that culture and the values, did you ever feel that there were some expectations of you as Mauritian girls, straight women, that push back against because that's not what you saw or wanted, particularly growing up in the UK, where maybe those boundaries weren't placed on other young women or girls?
Pamela Permalloo Bass 12:39
I can share some examples of when I was a lot younger, because as I said, I was born in Mauritius and I spent quite a lot of time, my formative years in Mauritius as well as being brought up in the UK. And whether it still happens now, I've got no idea. But definitely when I was younger, I wasn't allowed to go out even to the shop in Mauritius on my own. I had to have a chaperone. So that whole feeling of asking to do something, so I didn't understand. I remember going to Mauritius for about four months when I was about 16. So very independent here in the UK, traveling around, using public transport, etc. Being in Mauritius, I felt restricted. Like I said, I couldn't go to the shop. I couldn't go out and meet anybody on my own. Always I had to ask someone to come with me. So it never felt like there was any privacy because I was always with someone or several people. So I think that's an experience that definitely stayed for me. But absolutely growing up, there was a lot of cultural aspects in regards to religious activities that we would, and I don't know Nadia, if your family were involved, like doing a hawan or having to go to the temple and doing different things. So again, in those environments, there are certain things that women can and can't do. But I found that really hard to understand and accept even as a young woman. I didn't want to sort of fit within that norm of what a woman does or what a girl does.
So I always think to myself that actually, you know, for the whole space of diversity and inclusion, I was sort of made for this work. And it's something that I've always pushed forward and challenged the status quo. And that's what I did. For a lot of our relations, they still remember me as being somebody who was very, well, I call it challenging. They're called argumentative.
Shelina Permalloo 14:25
It's really funny that Pam's spoken about it in that way, because I was sort of waiting for her to use the word argumentative. But actually, when I think about her, she was a trailblazer. She was trying to challenge the status quo. She didn't understand why people had to do it this way, and women couldn't go in other ways. But I'm probably quite opposite to Pam, actually. I enjoyed all the tasks that women got. So I really enjoyed the cooking in the kitchen. I loved the gossiping in the kitchen, the palab, the noise. I loved being in that room. I loved being in that space, giving potatoes to hear what auntie was slagging off some cousin. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. I never really questioned it. I think that was a difference until I got much older. I think being the young child as well is why I'm the baby of the family. There was probably expectations that mum would drag me out and I'll just be sort of her little doll, if that makes sense. So I remember mum saying, you need to dress up for so and so, you need to look like this, where's all your gold jewelry? You can't look like a boy, take your trousers off, put your dress on. I think I've always been pretty compliant. I think it was because I just didn't want to defy the culture. I was accepting of the fact that this is how mum and dad lived. And then things did change, I think. So our dad died when I was young, so in the 90s. And I do think things changed there. And I think because of the way that the family changed, the dynamic of the family, and the fact that we've lost the patriarch, and things changed, people saw our family differently. There was many less parties, because there wasn't a man in the house to host. So it did change and I was aware of it. And I think that's when I started to question things. So I probably had like a delayed reaction. I think Pam knew from the get go that she didn't want to live like that. And for me, when we lost dad, it was almost like, oh, so as women who don't have a father, how do we live in this world? And how do we try and get the things that we need? We were from a very poor background, we didn't have much money, very working class. And so we didn't have the things that people, you know, people might look at us now and think, oh, they were from a wealthy background. No, we were bunking up in each other's beds at night. It wasn't like that. But yeah, being women in the 80s, Mauritian British women, I think we were just treading water trying to understand what does this mean, A, to be a British Mauritian and B, a British Mauritian woman. And I think all I only really learned that much later in my life. I would say in my 30s really is when I started to understand the complexities of being the other, being the lesser, being the non and what that all meant, actually.
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:51
And it really resonates with me because I would say pretty much in my 30s is where I started really thinking about who I was and as a British Mauritian woman. And I speak about this actually in my book, I had done such a good job of trying to fit in a very white middle class environment, which is the school I ended up going to was a selective all girls grammar school for high school. And so I was surrounded by these girls who'd managed to get in and they were pretty much all white and just doing my best to blend, being so different to the majority, but trying.
And I just did whatever I could to let go of my Mauritian heritage. I was so desperate to be white British. I pushed against anything Mauritian. So there was something in my 30s where I started to realize what I had done so skillfully, even though unaware, and then started to embrace it again. So I had to reframe my brain and start really deciding who I wanted to be. And actually I lost something that I did not want to, I didn't want to be lost anymore. So that was my personal battle, I suppose, with being Mauritian British and female. And interestingly, I can hear very much Pamela's story resonates with me, pushing back and going, no, why can't I do that? And your story too, Shelina. Let's come to you, Shelina, because as we're talking about this, and of course I can't have you on Why Care without asking you and delving further into your 2012 MasterChef win, which was so significant, obviously for you and your life, but in the broader Mauritian community. So people at work, so I was working at Lambeth Council at the time and they were like, oh my goodness, did you see, it's a Mauritian woman who's won MasterChef. Do you know her? Can you get her round? And I'm like, no, I don't know every Mauritian in the UK. Everyone was talking about this amazing, did you see what she cooked?
And I loved that moment where I was like, goodness, what Shelina has done for Mauritian culture, just putting it on a little pin on the map and going, yeah, actually, there's some pretty cool stuff that comes off this tiny island and look at this incredible food. Were there any, well, either positive or negative responses that you received off the back of that win, some things that you just weren't expecting?
Shelina Permalloo 19:28
So in terms of the why, I think I only sort of reflect now and think, why did I do it? Why did I go on a national TV show and start focusing on Mauritian food? I think the why was I never want to lose the culture that I love. But what I had done is I almost prioritized the things that I loved about our culture and then just harnessed it. So food for me it's a thing that keeps me grounded to my identity. Whilst we may talk about the other things that we don't particularly like, the patriarchy to some degree, parts about our culture that we don't like, certain things, might enjoy the palab, might not enjoy the palab, but food has always been a consistent. I adore and love Mauritian cuisine.
It's so diverse. It represents all the things I love about our island, the ethnic diversity, the religious diversity, the fact that everyone can come together and just eat the same kind of food and love it. And I think cooking our food means that I can reflect all of that diversity on a plate without needing to discuss the dark sides of culture and the dark side of our island that I don't want to talk about. I don't want to talk about politics. I don't want to talk about all those things. I just want to embrace and enjoy together. So when I did Master Chef, I hadn't quite realised how it would take me on my own cultural journey until much later. But when I did win, what I loved so much about it is not only the Mauritians, it was people of color. So many people from the islands of the Caribbean were so proud. Lots of African communities reached out, Indians. So it was all other Brown and Black people who embraced the win because I was a woman of color. I was visibly different. There wasn't anyone like me at the time. And the fact that I was shouting very loudly about African cuisine 12 years ago, it's becoming a little bit popular now. But African cuisine, no one knew what it was. No one knew what it meant. And I've loved that. But funnily enough, I literally just spoke to Pam before we went on the call, as we normally have our daily WhatsApps. And if we don't have that, we'll have a quick natter on the phone. It has been difficult. And I think the part that I don't talk about enough is whilst I love our culture, and I'll continue to shout so highly about our food culture, is the fact that Mauritians, whilst I get a lot of love, I get consistent love from a lot of people. There are people who shout really loud. And they're the people that always want to remind me that the recipes are wrong, that I'm not quite Mauritian, I've lost my Creole, that I'm English. And my question back is, would you rather I stop talking about Mauritius?
Would you rather I stop talking about food? And would you rather I didn't speak about our culture and communities to the wider public? Because that's who I am. And I might not be a version of a Mauritian woman that you identify with. And I don't put myself in a box or a category. But I am still what I am. And I'll continue to do the work that I need to do, which is to continue to showcase and highlight our incredible food and the diaspora of that food across the public media spaces that I inhibit. So yeah, I think it is disheartening because I do read the comments, you know, I go on Facebook, and I go on TikTok, which are the two worst places, by the way, where people say, you know, so many swear words, a ridiculous amount of Creole swear words. Yeah, I have to actually just go through it and start deleting because I don't want other people to read that. Because I've put cumin in something instead of cloves.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:55
Wow.
Shelina Permalloo 22:56
Or potatoes in something. But the whole point about our food and our culture is we all cook very differently. And I hadn't quite understood that until I started this journey. So the fact that we are Chinese-Mauritian, French-Mauritian, Indians, which have got subclasses of the way they cook, veg, non-veg, you've got Muslim communities, you've got the black communities of Mauritius, Creole, all of us create food in unique ways to us. And they have been inherited food. This is how we speak to one another through the way that we prepare our foods. So if I present that to the world, and you're telling me it's wrong, that means you're telling me that the generations of women and men that cook those recipes were also wrong. And I just think that's such a naive and very bigoted approach to championing our people, we should all be sitting there and respecting the fact that we are all successful in different ways. And I just wish there was more of that. And that's what I want more of our Mauritian communities, really.
Nadia Nagamootoo 23:54
And as you're speaking, it's almost like, because Mauritius is so eclectic, so diverse, with so you've named even just a small handful, actually, of the diversity within a small island, I always can't believe actually, how diverse a small island can be. But it's had so much history, and therefore, that wealth of diversity is present. But we know that when there is diversity, you do get this clash of not wanting to accept that your way could exist simultaneously as my way. Is it possible that we can both cook a chicken Ladob and for us to add slightly different ingredients, but still call it the same thing? Right? And that for me, and Pamela, working in diversity, equity and inclusion, that's ultimately what it comes down to, isn't it? What we're trying to get leaders and people to see is that there are multiple realities, two can coexist. And we don't have to throw stones at someone simply because their reality is different to ours.
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I'm interested now, just bringing you in Pamela, because of your insight into the NHS, you spent many years in diversity and equity and inclusion working in the NHS. Maybe you can bring some insights with that in mind, what you've seen, what you've heard, what some of the challenges were.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 26:23
Yeah, I just probably wanted to just add to what Shelina said and the example of the chicken ladob and the different ways of cooking it, because I think it's a really good analogy around what is inclusion in all of our societies. I think when we're thinking about inclusion, and particularly this example around Mauritius, and Mauritians in Mauritius, and Mauritians in the UK, and Mauritians in different parts of the world, there's the landscape and the history of culture that makes people perceive things in very different ways. So if we're trying to unpick that and understand that, it's having that perspective as well. In the NHS, as we all know, it's an environment of lots of ethnic diversity and lots of different cultures. And there are particular areas where it's hugely staffed by international recruits. So our nurses that come from different parts of the world tend to come in at band five, six.
And then there's a lot of data to show that there's a real challenge in getting to band seven, and actually band eight. So bearing in mind that it is so ethnically diverse, having that awareness of different cultures, how people are, how difference can absolutely improve organisational environments, particularly when you're running large organisations with complexity, but also ensuring patient care is at the forefront, knowing our societies are diverse, it's absolutely crucial to bring that into play. It's not easy. If that's my next question, there's no easy way of doing it. I've been in the public sector for just over 30 years. There are some quick wins, but long term, in order for change to happen, it's sort of slow, sustainable stuff that you need to enable organisations to incorporate within what they're doing.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:09
I mean, the NHS is such a deeply entrenched system, right? And so, I mean, hats off to you and anyone who's working in diversity, equity, and inclusion within the public sector in general, NHS included, because actually it feels like you're just pushing a boulder up a mountain at times. There's such inequity steeped in the system. Even people of, say, for example, something my dad said to me, he said, so bearing in mind he's now 83, 84, this was a few years back, and he said to me, they offered me a choice of doctors and I chose this one. I said, oh, okay, well, how did you go about making that decision? And he said, well, he sounded like he was going to be a white person. And I was like, dad, what makes you think that just because he's white, he's going to be any better than any of the other consultants who might be Black, Asian, whatever? And he was just like, I just feel more comfortable. And that was the end of the conversation. But it really made me stop and think, how is it that consultants who are of a different ethnic background other than white, how are they treated, not just internally, but also by patients, the expectations, the bias, and the things that they have to overcome and the barriers in their career?
Pamela Permalloo Bass 29:27
Yeah, again, it's well researched. There's lots of information that I'm happy to share links to the people who are interested. But Roger Klein, who's an academic, has written a lot of really good accessible pieces of work around this particular sort of disproportionality with regards to different roles within the NHS, so clinical and non-clinical roles and experiences within the system. So how people are disproportionately impacted, whether it's through disciplinary grievances, applying for jobs, career progression. And then on the other angle of this is that patient experience. And how, again, we've got data that suggests, again, that there is a disproportionality regarding race and ethnicity with patients.
So it's very much part of what we all know about the NHS. So the majority of people who work in the NHS know this, and we know that this is what people are feeling and experiencing. We talk about it openly. But it's actually how do you change something so very much part of our society? How do you make those shifts and changes? And it does vary from organisation to organisation.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:34
Yeah. Thank you, Pamela. There's parallels to the food industry that you're in and the hospitality industry, Shelina. So when I googled world's top chefs, you can imagine the images that came up, okay? A whole list of pretty much all men and pretty much all white. There were a few who weren't, but only in the minority. And so I'm interested in your take on your industry, just as Pamela's offered some insight into the NHS. An industry that is fascinating to me because cooking, as you just mentioned, when we think about Mauritian roles, it is tended to be a more female role in the household. And yet, when we look at celebrity chefs, we're not seeing that translated. What do you think is going on there? How do we begin to tackle that? I mean, obviously, you're doing your bit, and we're absolutely cheering you on as you go. But what's in that system that you see that needs to be tackled?
Shelina Permalloo 31:43
So I would probably answer that there are kind of two sides of the coin. The first part is the traditional, and then the other aspect is non-traditional. So in a traditional sense, in terms of hospitality, which is when we look at restaurants, culinary trade in itself, the structure, not dissimilar to the NHS, has been formed on foundations that almost prohibit women and people of color from getting in. So when we think about the hours of hospitality, the kind of hours you would need to expect to work, it would be very hard for you to be a mother or a carer to work a 15, 16-hour shift. So all of that just means that it would have traditionally been a male environment. Has that changed?
Yes. I would say the other side of the coin is social media, and the fact that we now have so many people who are coming into the space, sharing their history, their culinary skills on social media, which will then put them into different spaces. They may well be cooking as postages in restaurants where they wouldn't have had access before, but because they've become sort of social media creators or influencers. So there is such a different kind of route in, and I think in the traditional route in, it's very hard, and it is still very much a white male-dominated industry. As an example, last year I was invited for the Constance Culinary Festival in Mauritius, and it was the first time that I was invited after nearly 11 or 12 years after winning MasterChef.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:11
Really?
Shelina Permalloo 33:12
Yeah, and I remember wanting to go for years, but there hasn't ever been any Brown women in that space, and I was very aware that I was so different. When I arrived in Mauritius, I was very excited to be involved, but it is still very much a traditional environment, and there was no other Mauritian representative apart from me. The festival itself is about the transference of knowledge, so taking these archetypal stereotype of chefs, and they would teach the local Mauritians. So there is good intention, but in terms of the people that were represented to be judges, it was still very much white men from the European countries. And then the other flip side is the world is changing, so the way people get work, it's not the same as it used to be. So going back into the food world, people can share their histories and knowledge on social media very quickly, get a really big platform, and then start to get work in the industry, open restaurants, and have exposure to many different routes in, and I think that's amazing, and I love that. But it is changing, so I can't say it's not. It definitely is changing. I have to say when I first won MasterChef, it was still really quite traditional. There wasn't very many women of color, and the people that were of color, almost some of them don't want to talk about their cultural heritage, because it's not relevant to the job. What is important is cooking and learning a style and getting on with it. But there is a real wave of new types of people in the industry.
There is actually a new industry awards, which is called Be Inclusive Hospitality, which was set up in COVID, and that is to reflect the diversity of Black, Asian, minority ethnic, Southeast Asian, and just creating a platform where people can share, be mentored, and have awards, so that there is a real recognition of talent in the industry. But it is changing, but probably not at pace.
Nadia Nagamootoo 35:10
How did it feel when you first won at this, so back to 12 years ago, when you really were so noticeably the only, around the table, trying to influence, trying to offer something quite different. 12 years ago, what you were offering was so different to what many of the other chefs who were well known anyway, at the time, were offering. Did you face any barriers at the time, any pushback against your credibility or what you had to offer?
Shelina Permalloo 35:40
I'll bring up a funny example, which might kind of summarize what I came across. I'd actually been asked to host a week of cooking at a very well-known restaurant in central London, in Mayfair. And my name was across all the posters, and it was a collaborative seven days of Mauritian and other cuisine together. Chef Shelina Permalloo, MasterChef winner.
So I'd actually been asked to host a week of cooking at a very well-known restaurant in central London in Mayfair, and my name was across all the posters and it was a collaborative seven days of, you know, Mauritian and other cuisine together. You know, chef Shelina Permalloo, MasterChef winner, and so I arrived the first morning of the event with my pack of knives and my backpack in the morning, so no makeup, looking like I just jumped out of bed because I had, it was about five in the morning, and I go in and the person at the desk says, you know, the cleaning equipment's over on that side because they thought I was a KP, a kitchen porter. And I just went, no, no, no, I'm going to be head chef tonight. What? What are you talking about?
Pamela Permalloo Bass 36:37
And it was literally that.
Shelina Permalloo 36:38
And she just looked, and it was a she was sort of the restaurant floor manager, and I just went, you know, the picture behind you, I know it doesn't look like me, you know. I said, don't look good in real life, and she started laughing. So I made it, but that was because I made it soft. I didn't make it a bit itchy because I didn't want to start with any bad energy, and it goes back to this whole kind of, I'm a bit more compliant, I think if it was Pam, she might have got something more than that.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 01:21
Got the knives out
Shelina Permalloo 01:22
So I, you know, made a joke of it, but actually there is something inherent there that, you know, another woman saw a woman of colour and automatically assumes that I'm not a skilled or experienced chef, that the only place for me was as a kitchen porter. And back then, in the kitchens across London, you are not going to see a woman like me running the pass as a head chef for the night. You would only see trenches. It almost becomes this kind of democracy in a kitchen. You have like the white male head chefs and then below him would be another line. And then below that you might then start seeing the color.
And then it was almost like, I just knew who my kitchen porter was going to be. And it was such a crying shame. That was the way the world works at the time. And that continued for many years. And it stopped when I had my own restaurant because I was then in charge of hiring and firing. I was in charge of creating a space that I wanted to be different. I ended up employing a woman who ended up being my head chef the entire duration of the restaurant. He was over the age of 50, couldn't speak a word of English, was Greek, not Mauritian, but would not have been employed by anyone else. She would have struggled to find employment. And I look at her and I think there's no reason why you are not competent next to a white male chef. So at that point I started to make a conscious decision to start changing the way that I employed. And I wanted to bring women in. So I ended up having an all female management team for the entire time that my restaurant was open. I closed it last year. So eight years of having a restaurant. And everyone that I employed, there was a conscious and real reason why I had employed them. And I think this is a whole point that actually we can be in control of that. We can orchestrate that ourselves and we can bring change and start to make a small little impact in our little ponds that we work in.
Nadia Nagamootoo 38:49
And I love that about what I'm hearing in your leadership. And if we all, if every leader did that, recognise, and realise that there's an issue going on here. And with my own authority and my own power, I can actively make difference in the decisions that I make and who I choose to bring on or in whatever capacity that they have. So love that.
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Pamela, how have you experienced or have you experienced being the only? And how has that played out in your context?
Pamela Permalloo Bass 40:07
I have experienced it frequently and regularly, both professionally and personally. Definitely at the start of my career, I actually started my leadership journey in my early 20s. And at the time, there was in the entire organization, there were three women who were all the same age at the time, all 27. And the rest of the team were all white middle class men. I was the only Brown person in that entire leadership team. So as well as being a woman, being young, I was Brown, and it was in Oxfordshire back in the 90s. So you can imagine what that was like going in and out of meetings, staying in hotels overnight, traveling, absolutely very conscious of being the only in lots of different scenarios. So like I said, it wasn't just the Brownness, it was the fact that it was young female in leadership. Yeah. And I think probably as sort of years have gone on, I've become more at ease with being in those environments, because it's one of those where you're sitting at the table in these environments where you have influence and potentially have some power. And what am I going to do with it? I don't know, I've carried on with my career, but actually I'm here and I'm not going anywhere. So actually, how do I use my voice and my influence to make the impact that I want to?
I guess the thing that used to really grate me, and actually I was talking to somebody about it this week, and it probably still does, is back in the day when there was hardly any Black or Brown people at all in senior leadership roles, there was absolutely that whole thing of performative, the way people communicate and the way they share. So I'd have different directors or different execs wanted to sit next to me at dinner or talk to me about particular topics of that whole closeness and Brownness.
And I became hyper aware of that and wanting to talk about culture, which again, some may say, well, it's great, they want to have a conversation. But the more I had of it, the more I became very aware it was very deliberate in environments where they could be seen to be talking to other brown people.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:19
That annoys me so much.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 40:21
Back in the day with no social media, but now we've got people taking photographs. So that still does grate me. But obviously it's a podcast and everyone's going to hear that. So well, it's now open.
Shelina Permalloo 42:36
No one's taking selfies with Pam anymore.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:40
Have you had anyone who you hold in high regard with regards to their inclusive leadership, who's lifted you up for the right reasons? Because genuinely they see, actually, why isn't Pam around the table? Why hasn't Pam got a voice here? Who's amplifying your voice for the reason of, actually, she's amazing. Let's get her in. Yeah. I've shared how long my career has been.
Shelina Permalloo 43:06
And I would say that every role that I've had in the different organisations that I've worked in, I've always had several people who have been what we now call sponsors, support, friends. And interestingly, just thinking about how you would categorize those people, there were men and women who would be described as middle-class and White. So I absolutely had several White allies who would support and sponsor me in all of those different roles.
And most of them have become very close friends because we've all known each other for a long time. And a lot of the work I do now is on the back of those people that I've worked with in the past. So I've got this very fortunate period of my career now where I'm working with people that I've got a lot of respect for and I really do value and appreciate working with them. And they, all of them, absolutely presented those attributes of inclusive leadership.
Nadia Nagamootoo 44:01
I love that. And it means so much, doesn't it? When you have someone who has already a platform, already has some sort of advantage because of just simply the world will take them and look at them differently to the way that they will look at you and therefore treat you differently. It means so much when they recognize that and they do something to help and support your success because you've earned it. Shelina, same question to you. I'm particularly interested if there's a celebrity male chef who you've always found supportive, wanting to amplify the work you do, wanting to help grow your career because you deserve to have that platform.
Shelina Permalloo 44:49
Yeah, I wouldn't be able to pinpoint names just because I wouldn't want to exclude, but I have had many supportive male figures throughout my career who have been White and non-White. So I wouldn't just because they are the status quo, it doesn't mean that they don't want change. And I have come across lots of different types of chefs who have actively tried to change the way that their team looks, feels, the way they present themselves. So I think things are changing and I do think having those conversations and being around different types of people and sort of recognizing that certain spaces, just because they've always been occupied by a certain type of people, it doesn't need to continue. And I think there's so many different types of mentors and people that you can ask for help. I think the people that really struggle are the ones that don't listen. And that sounds really rude, but you kind of have to listen, you have to weed through what the message is and then you have to act and you have to then just go and get what you need to get and just be really kind of dogged about it. And I think there needs to be some level of tenacity. So we're sitting here, then there's three successful Mauritian women on a podcast.
There might be something that connects all the dots. And I can't believe that it wouldn't be that. It wouldn't be that we're all tenacious in different ways and that we have accepted advice and we've listened and we've taken information and gone and fought for our own spaces and rooms that do not look like us and continue to do that. And I think that's really important. So I do lots of mentoring for lots of different types of people. And the people that are successful in those mentoring sessions are the ones that take some of that information and actually change their lives with it. And there's the ones that continue to shout about the fact that spaces are not made for them. Doors just don't open. You've got to push that door down and keep going.
And we'll have trailblazers like Pam for me, a woman who I look up to. And whilst there is an age difference, I almost feel that she showed me what we can do as women of color. And I think that we all have those types of people that we look up to, that we sort of look at and think, well, what did she do different? Well, Pam didn't just stand there by a door that was closed. She pushed her way through it. She found a key. And if she didn't get a key, she would have hammered it down. And that's really powerful.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 47:07
You're giving out a different vibe about me now.
Shelina Permalloo 47:07
No, but it's powerful and it's important. I think that's the whole point that there are people that had to smash through those doors and then there's other people that get to walk through them. And I think those are two different types of people. So you've got the trailblazers and then you've got ones where it's recognising that people have fought hard to be in this space before you, which means that you have to continue to fight as well. So yeah, I think the spaces are changing, but we still have a lot of work to do.
Nadia Nagamootoo 47:32
Yeah. I love what you just said. It's so inspiring. And especially with both of you talking to you and hearing your own stories, your own barriers that you've come across or you've seen or you've witnessed and your perspective on actually being the change that we want to see in your own unique way that you're both doing it. And I love your leadership. I love what you're doing to create change in this world.
Thank you so much. I can't describe how much I'm grateful for this conversation, for sharing three powerful Mauritian British women on a call. What could happen? Well, we've just shown a lot and it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Thank you both so much for joining me.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 48:23
You're very welcome, Nadia.
Shelina Permalloo 48:24
Thank you, Nadia. It's been a lot of fun.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:27
If people want to get hold of you, can you just give a high level, socials, websites, where can they find you? Pamela
Shelina Permalloo 48:34
Mine's very straightforward. LinkedIn. And it's just Pamela Permalloo Bass.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:40
Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. And Shelina?
Shelina Permalloo 48:42
Just on all socials, it's Shelina Cooks. And I'm not very good on LinkedIn. So probably on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook.
Nadia Nagamootoo 48:51
Excellent. And you will find many amazing videos of Shelina cooking, which I have actually followed some of those recipes that I found much to my family's delight. So we thank you once again, both. And a real pleasure speaking to you.
Pamela Permalloo Bass 49:07
Thank you, Nadia. Thank you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 40:07
That concludes episode 49 of Why Care? I have to say that I found this conversation both comforting and cathartic. There's nothing quite like connecting with those who have walked a similar path to you. Without doubt, Pamela and Shelina are a powerhouse duo. I love their drive, passion and purpose. Do let Pamela, Shelina and I know what you thought of today's show.
You can find me on LinkedIn and Insta with the handle at Nadia Nagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro at Kenji Productions for editing this podcast and to Jenny Lynton for getting it out there on social media.
